Out-Of-Area Single Family Rental Houses With Eric Martel

Derek Dombeck explores how to invest in out-of-area single family rental houses with Eric Martel of MartelTurnkey. In this episode, Eric talks about his works on private money lending and joint ventures, their well-designed FlipSystem, and his criteria in picking the best real estate markets. He shares his most valuable insights on team-building tactics, ridge loans, fixed-rate financing, and interest rates. He also presents his book about winning real estate, as well as why financial freedom and passive wealth must always be your ultimate goals when investing in any kind of property.

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I’ve got a special guest, Eric Martel. I’m going to let Eric do his own bio because quite honestly, it’ll come a lot better from him. Eric, I was on your podcast, the Stop Trading Your Time for Money podcast and we had a great time. If you wouldn’t mind, give us all a little background on you and we’ll dive right into it.

My story is I bought my first real estate apartment building, an 18-apartment building, when I was 18 years old. I was still at university. I had no money, but I had a mentor and this was what I referred to as my Rich Dad Poor Dad moment, where I had met someone who was a real estate investor and he mentored me into buying my first real estate property. Eventually, I tried to invest in real estate in all the different places where I lived. I graduated from university to get more money so that it would make real estate investing easier. It turns out that as I worked as an actuary and later on in high tech, then I had tons of money and stock options, more money than I could dream of at the time. I landed in the San Francisco Bay Area.

Money was not an issue. It was about finding a property and that was where the numbers would actually make sense. None of the properties in the San Francisco Bay Area with cashflow. The only way to cashflow would be to put a ton of cash in and increase the down payment and reduce the mortgage. Your cash on cash return was like 1% or 2%. I said, “That doesn’t make sense.” The dotcom crash happened so that all these millions of dollars that I had in stock options evaporated. I went back to the drawing board and I said, “I have to be in control of my investment and I want to be more passive.” I don’t mind spending some time to get a business going. Eventually, I wanted to be passive within like five years or so.

I wanted to be able to have passive income, being able to generate income anywhere in the world so that I could travel, live my life and leave a legacy for my children. We did a bunch of different businesses and eventually, we came back to real estate, but out-of-state real estate, out-of-state single-family rentals. That’s what we landed with and that was extremely successful. It was so successful that I sold my house in the San Francisco Bay Area, took out all the equity that I had and invested it in real estate and never looked back since then. That was the best decision I’ve ever made besides moving to Fort Lauderdale. That was to save taxes from California.

I don’t think we want to spend the whole episode talking about California taxes, but we probably could.

That investment turned into MartelTurnkey. We had some people that initially it was us doing the portfolio. Eventually, that turned into MartelTurnkey where we’re selling these properties to investors. Eventually, these same investors that were with us at the beginning that started buying turnkey, now they’re saying, “Can you teach us how to buy the distressed property, renovate it, rent it out?” This is where FlipSystem was launched, which is exactly what we’re doing.

Identifying The Best Investment Vehicle

Let’s go back a little bit to the beginning. You said you landed on single-family houses, but how do you know what the best investment vehicle is to get the passive income that you want? What was your journey with that?

I’m very mathematically inclined. I’m always looking at my return on investment, my annualized return. To make a decision. That eliminates obviously things that have negative cashflow. I’m looking at two different properties. I’m looking for a property that is like an apartment building that has a cap rate of like 6% or 8%. I’m comparing that with a single-family rental that has an 8% or 10% while I would tend to gravitate towards the single-family rental space. That’s basically what happened. On top of that, in the multifamily space right now, I think that demographically, the Millennials are going to start what they call the family formation years. They’re going to move in with their girlfriend, boyfriend or partners and start a family.

That means they’re going to move out of their parental house. That also means that they’re going to move out of their apartment buildings potentially and then move into single-family rentals because they’re chasing the American dream, the house, the cars, the driveway, the picket fence, the two dogs and the two kids. That’s what’s ingrained in everybody’s mind, to live in single-family rental. A lot of them as kids had run in the backyard. They want the same experience for their children. We’re seeing a big demand for a single-family rental.

Picking Your Markets

I live in the Midwest in Wisconsin, so we can still buy cashflow here. How do you go about picking your markets? How does somebody reading this show even begin picking a market to start looking at single-family?

That’s exactly what we had to do. When Zillow came on board and we had data from all over the US, this is the only time where we were able to figure out which market we could go after. That’s exactly where we landed. We landed in the Midwest as well, in Memphis, Cleveland, St. Louis, and Detroit. A bunch of other states and cities in Ohio as well. How we came about these states, the first criteria was landlord-friendly states. We wanted to be able to not be a bad landlord, but if a tenant is not paying, I want to be able to evict them so that I can find a tenant that will pay the rent. That was one thing.

We wanted to have some business diversification. We didn’t want to have a city where we invested to be like a monolith of one industry. If that industry fails, then all of a sudden everything crumbles. We wanted to have something that was a little bit more stable. We went through like San Francisco Bay Area, like the boom of that. Now it’s coming down since the interest rate went up. The same thing went in Austin, too. We had these big booms, like tons of influx.

We stay away from cities where they have these big up and down in terms of people moving in or people moving out. We want something that’s very stable, very boring. I would say like 1% growth or less. That gives a chance for the market to adapt. If you have like 10,000 people moving into the city, it’s easy for the city to absorb it. That way, you don’t have these spikes in prices and all that stuff. These are the main criteria that we used at the macro level, I would say. After that, it was working with the team on the ground to identify the neighborhoods that made sense for us to invest. Typically, it would be like the B and C class neighborhood, a work class neighborhood.

Team Building

You keep saying we. What does the team look like?

We have an acquisitions team. We have also the person who is managing the whole process, the whole renovations and all of that. On the back end, we have the salesperson that basically we market it, we put it on our website, and then that property, when someone is interested, it comes and calls our salesperson and then we go through the transaction.

I’ll speak for myself. As I was coming up through the mid-2000s and the markets crashed and I got destroyed, I became probably worse than ever where I wanted to have my fingers on everything. I didn’t want employees. I didn’t want to trust anybody because the people I did trust let me down. How do you vet the people that you’re going to put your faith in because it’s not in your backyard?

I think that keeps a lot of people, especially newer in the business. They stall out because they can’t find decent deals in their home city, but they’re scared to death of going somewhere else. I understand that that can be where MartelTurnkey is there to work with that person and walk them through it. How did you get over that hump or was that never an issue for you?

No, it’s always an issue. When you get started building the team on the ground is absolutely critical. With MartelTurnkey, we did that. When a lot of our investors on MartelTurnkey were asking us to help them also do their own flips. We did some online training and some coaching, and we basically told them, “This is what you have to do. You have to call 200 realtors and property managers in the city that you want to invest in. You talk to them, you vet them, and then you get started.” It was difficult for people to do that. That’s why we launched FlipSystem, where we actually, we are sharing our partners on the ground, the people that we’ve been working with, and that we are vetting through our process.

We are staying on top of them and making sure that they’re doing what’s best for our FlipSystem customers. The key here is that you start slow. You go and say, “You sound good.” You’re in alignment in terms of your interests and theirs. This is something that’s very important. If you’re winning, if you’re doing a great job and making a lot of money, then you want them to also be making good money so that everybody’s aligned. Everybody’s working together towards the same goal. People are people, there’s going to be some people that are going to be a little bit greedier and then you have to cut them off and say, “I’m going to deal with somebody else.” You have to maintain your alignment throughout all the projects that you’re doing.

The old saying, hire slow and fire fast definitely comes into play.

I think sometimes how shortsighted some contractors are, we see that more on the contractor side. Some of the contractors that we’ve worked with, once they started working with us, they didn’t have to look for a job anymore. They had multiple projects. They could ramp up their business. They could hire more people. They didn’t have to do any marketing. They didn’t have any downtime. There’s an advantage to working with us.

I’ve seen that in my own business over the years. I’ve had incredible relationships with contractors. I worked for a contractor for a long time. That’s how I got my start, to begin with. When things get busy and they have all the work they can possibly take on and they start price gouging, not that that’s a problem. I’m a capitalist. They have a right to charge what they’re worth and they can get it. It’s amazing now as work is starting to slow down a little bit, they’re all starting to trickle back in and call to say, “Do you have any work for us?” Where were you when I needed you?

You wouldn’t even return my call. Now you want to come back. Don’t bite the hand that feeds you. That’s essentially what you’re saying. They absolutely could have that consistent work. Maybe they’re not getting top dollar, but they’re not having the peaks and valleys of their workload either. You’re right, people are very shortsighted.

It’s not the majority, obviously. Other people see this as a great relationship. They said, “You mean I can just swing the hammer all day and I don’t have to go and look for a customer. You’re going to give me job after job? Sign me up.”

MartelTurnkey

How long has MartelTurnkey been going?

MartelTurnkey started in 2015.

What happened when COVID hit? How did that affect it?

When COVID hit, actually there was a pause, so that was interesting. In February and March, everybody was holding their breath and then like, “What’s going on here? Is everything going to crash? Is everything going to collapse?” All that stuff. There was that pause and then basically in April, the sales started going again. This is like, “This is like a disease and then we’re doing something about it.” People started buying properties again.

For us, at that time, I was running a hard money lending company with a business partner. Since then, he’s bought me out. It was interesting. About April 1st, all of the hedge funds stopped buying the national hard money lender’s paper, their notes. We had a 400% increase in applications for loans. We couldn’t fund anywhere close to that. We didn’t have the backing to do it. We could cherry-pick the best deals.

2020 was a phenomenal year for those that were positioned properly. That brings up another question. What do you advise people to do if they want to mimic a turnkey business like yours? Are you using bank financing? Are you advising them to raise private capital or creative deal structures? How are you actually building out the purchase of these single-families?

For us, it was private money lending and joint venture. We were basically deciding which way we were going, depending on how risky we thought the economic environment was. If the economic environment was great, we were making great returns and all that, then we said, “Let’s go to P&L because that way I don’t have to share 50% of the profit. I can pay the interest for 4 or 5 months and then I move them to another project.”

Sometimes there are other environments like the pandemic, like you mentioned. We didn’t know exactly what would happen. All the new money that was coming in, we basically had them do a joint venture agreement instead and we shared the profit because we didn’t know if all our assumption was the project would last six months from close to close.

With the pandemic, we didn’t know if it would be six months or if it would be a year or a year and a half or whatever. We wanted to make sure that we had the flexibility to do that and that we would maintain the margin. It’s spreading the risk and that’s how we went back and forth. We never had to deal with hard money lending. We were lucky enough to be able to have the investors to do that on our own.

The reason I love that answer is because I don’t use banks. I haven’t used the bank for years for an investment property. A lot of that was out of necessity because when the markets crashed, I was no longer bankable, so we found a new way. I’ll openly admit I’ve not been able to do some deals without wanting to go to a bank. I like dealing with people instead of institutions.

When you have something like COVID or some other Black Swan event, it’s interesting how the banks aren’t willing to talk to you as openly as a mom-and-pop or an investor that you’re in a joint venture with. You can have multiple exit strategies and ride it out. It’s a refreshing conversation with you because most people, especially with the low-interest rates that we had for the last few years, all got addicted to bank financing.

Ridge Loans And Fixed Rate Financing

Now they’re panicking because they don’t have alternative methods. They don’t have private investors. What do you feel is going to happen? Two questions. In the multifamily space, we’ve got a lot of rich loans and 5 to 7-year type products that are going to be coming due. Second part of the question, with single-family fixed-rate financing, how do you see that playing out in the next twelve months?

I know a lot of people expect the interest rate to go down in 2024. I expect it to go sideways, maybe going down a little bit. I certainly don’t expect that it is going to go down to the 3% and 4% range. There’s no way this is going to happen. One of the reasons is that if you look at the average for the last 50 years, the average interest rate is 7.75%. We’re right there. We’re right in that zone right now. I think it’s going to go sideways. It may go down or up a little bit, but I think we’re right there.

Especially in the rental space. You want the rent to adjust also to the new rate. You want to have all the mindsets to adjust to the new rate. There was a big shock when the interest rate in 2022 started shooting up. People were in shock. It was like, “I can’t do anything. The interest rate is too high. I’m going to wait for it to come back down.” It was artificially low at 2% and 3% for the longest time. Don’t expect it to go back there. If it does go back, it’s because something is wrong. That’s my feeling on that.

My conversations with people that have been in this business for five years or less are completely different than my conversations with people that have been in 10 to 20 years. I was happy to see interest rates go up. I was and I still am. I agree with you. I think they’re going to stay level. They may go up and down a half a point here and there. I don’t think we’ll see below 5% interest rates in the next 10 years. There’s no reason for it, to be honest.

Unless something goes wrong, like I said.

Even if they do that, it would be to try and pump up inflation for some other Black Swan event. It would be short-term. We’ve got some great opportunities where now, people both in commercial and residential space are willing to talk alternative methods and to talk terms. I think it’s Christmas for the next 12 to 24 months.

The commercial, that’s going to be interesting. As you mentioned, a lot of people are in these term loans that are going to expire and they have to renew in the next 5, 10 years. If they can’t get financing, I think that could be a big problem. We may have some nice sales on the multifamily side.

FlipSystem

Are you still actively raising money or are you always raising money?

Not at this time. Right now, my focus is on the FlipSystem right now. We’re helping our customers on FlipSystem to ramp up their own turnkey business, their own real estate business. We connect them with everything. We give them the training, the acquisitions team and we connect them with our team on the ground, as I mentioned. We have the community and we even allow them to list their property on MartelTurnkey. They follow the program and they’re part of the program. We have 15,000 investors on MartelTurnkey that are looking to build a passive income portfolio. This is great for them. They have access to these 15,000 investors.

The reason I was asking if you were or not is because I’m always raising money. It’s part of my everyday life. What I see with all these apartment complexes that were syndicated, the banks are going to be fine because the banks are only in a 70% loan-to-value. It’s the syndication that raised 20%, 30% down. There’s going to be cash calls or they’re going to get flat out wiped out. From the aspect of the rest of us raising money, we’re dealing with gun-shy investors that got burnt. However, they still need somewhere to go for a good, safe return. I’m seeing this already. A handful of the people that I’ve talked to and raised money from took big losses in 2022 and 2023, but they can’t sit on the sidelines because inflation will eat them up.

Eric’s Book

It’s interesting from a raising money standpoint. People will be able to learn more about you and look at your FlipSystem and I know that you’ve got a book out there as well. Talk a little bit about the book.

The book is explains everything that you need in order to do what I’ve been doing in real estate. I share all the secrets. Everything is in there. We talk about mindset. I talk about skills that you need in order to get into the real estate business. You don’t need that many skills. You need to be organized, you need to be disciplined, you need to follow through, you need to communicate and you need to know a few numbers, how to add, multiply and divide and stuff like that. It’s accessible to everybody.

After that, it’s about talking the process of how to invest out of state. I looked at all kinds of different strategies at a high level that are passive income generating. I put them in a quadrant. I call that The Investment Quadrant. You want to go for the ones that are low risk and low effort, but profitable and you end up in single-family rentals. That’s probably one of the best locations to be, or turnkey rentals or something like that if you have a lot of cash. Basically, I walk them through the process of creating their own passive income portfolio, how to create a team on the ground and all of that. All the secrets are in there.

You don’t need to be a graduate in actuarial mathematics to do turnkey.

No, that’s got me distracted. If I didn’t have this actuarial math, I wouldn’t have been distracted. I would’ve done more real estate and I would’ve retired years ago.

Impact Of Business On Life

One of the things I always like to ask anybody that I talk to is generations of wealth is not just financial wealth. It’s about spiritual wealth, time wealth and financial wealth. What’s your life been like? What have you been able to do because of the business you built and the way you built your business that leads to you to live your vision and love your life?

For me, I’m with my family. I work with my family every day. I have my wife who runs MartelTurnkey. I’m working with my son on the FlipSystem. My other son’s also involved. It’s a family business. We’re together. To me, my dream come true is to work with my family and having my family close to me. We all moved here in Florida at the same time and we were all in California. One of my sons was in Memphis and then moved here. That was one of my big things in terms of I like the time flexibility and I know a lot of people are going to say, “You’re a multimillionaire. Why are you working so hard?”

I like what I’m doing. I enjoy building companies. Some people play the guitar, some people have different hobbies. For me, something that I’m very passionate about is I like food, but I also like building businesses and helping other people. This is one of the reasons why we launched FlipSystem. There was a need out there and we wanted to help these people.

We had been talking to these people for many years. They were investors in MartelTurnkey. They were turnkey buyers and all that. We’ve been in these conversations with them for a long time. When we discovered that there was more than a need for the coaching and the acquisition and building that whole system. That’s why we decided to launch the FlipSystem with my son.

That’s a parallel to my journey, quite honestly, as you’re telling your story because I never had any desire to host masterminds and host a conference on a cruise ship and launch something like Generations of Wealth. I had enough people over the years who kept telling me, and I’m assuming you had the same thing, that what I could talk to people about and teach people was special.

Most of us, I would say, have that headspace of it’s another day in the office. What you do doesn’t seem like it’s over the top. What I do doesn’t seem like it’s over the top, but to many people from the outside looking in, they can’t even fathom how you could operate this turnkey in states that are in the Midwest and you’re in Florida or California or wherever you are.

Business Building Tips

It’s definitely all mindset. Now I’m honored to be able to host this show and have great conversations with people like yourself. I don’t know, it never was a part of anything. I would say to anyone reading, literally, you can do whatever you believe you can do. Eric is a tribute to that as well. Eric, as far as you mentioned other businesses, you’ve dabbled or you’ve built other businesses. What would you say to people who are thinking about starting a business or have an idea for a business?

It depends. For me, if you know the business inside and out, so if you truly know all the ins and out of a business that you’re planning to launch and you know it’s going to be profitable and you plan it all out and you say, “This is going to be a killer,” then I think you should go for it. A lot of the businesses that I started, I didn’t know what they were. We started a low-carb grocery store, so we knew a little bit about low carb and then we kind of like the Atkins diet and keto and all that kind of stuff. We launched that. I never did a grocery store. We had to figure out the whole thing, the POS and all that stuff. It was a lot of fun. We also did the gourmet sauce company.

I never had to deal with this food manufacturing distribution or in-store demos. I didn’t know anything about any of that. I didn’t even know what a co-packer was at that time. It was a lot of fun. We did that for five years. If I had known more about the business, maybe I wouldn’t have started the business. I would’ve said, “I know what’s going to happen. I’m going to waste ten years of my life and I’m not going to make any money.” It’s good and bad. I had a good time. My wife worked a lot on that business also. We had a good time. It was fun. We learned a lot of things. I don’t regret it at all, but it didn’t make any money. If you’re trying to generate passive income and have more time on your hands, then that business was not the right business for us.

That’s why we shut it down after operating for five years because it was not giving us the passive income that we needed. We also had a trucking company at one point. We had like 5 of these 18-wheelers and boxes and stuff like that on the West Coast. That was a big tax deduction, let’s say. That didn’t go very well. We were working with someone who knew the business and he said, “This is the opportunity. If you have these many trucks, I can open up all these doors. I know all these people.” It turned out that none of these doors were open. All the doors were locked, apparently. We never got the deals we were supposed to get. After two years, I think we had to shut it down.

The trucking industry, it was very weird because it was hit very hard. At one point, it was a high demand. After that, there was still a high demand, but then they wouldn’t pay the rates that was needed. It was very odd and it didn’t make sense for us to continue operating that trucking company. We’re losing a ton of money every month. After all that, I’m telling you, if you don’t know what business to start real estate is, this is where you should start.

You should start with the real estate business. It’s simple. Single-family rental is even simpler. This is something that interests you. If you don’t know about investing out of state, if you don’t have a team on the ground, that’s why we created FlipSystem. You join FlipSystem. We’re going to walk you through everything, we’re going to connect you with everybody that you need. If you’re not successful with FlipSystem, you’re doing something wrong or you’re not working hard enough, but we’re giving you everything there and you have coaches that help you along the way. To me, that’s the easiest way to get started in business.

The whole part for me, my kids are still fairly young, but I’ve always had my kids involved in our business and we’re an open book. If we have a deal or a business that doesn’t work out, our kids know about it. If we do something that works out well, I’ll sit down with closing statements and walk them through how we structured the deal and what we did for profits. When you start, as you mentioned, in real estate, even if that’s not your end journey for the rest of your life, having a few houses is never going to hurt you unless, as you said, you’re doing something incredibly wrong or you’re not working very hard. I look back, it’s been over twenty years since I started my original business in real estate.

I look back and think, “If I would’ve kept a few more houses.” Flipping houses is not investing in my opinion. It’s a job. Wholesaling is definitely a job. Holding properties and cashflowing properties, having mailbox money, twenty years goes by very quickly. When you start getting those houses that are free and clear, maybe they didn’t make a whole lot of money for the first twenty years, but now they’re free and clear, does that make a difference? That’s when you start getting the time freedom and the true wealth freedom.

This is what’s important. It’s that time freedom. This is not necessarily the end goal, but the number one thing that you should focus on is financial freedom. That means you get your time back and then you can do whatever you want. You’re passionate about some business that doesn’t make that much money. You can do that. You have money coming in. If you want to invest your time in something that you’re passionate about that is more like a hobby or something like that, then you can do that. Until you do this, until you build a passive income portfolio that’s going to pay your bill and that you live where you want to live, then it’s going to be tough

Closing Words

There are peaks and valleys in everything. It’s not ever easy. The process is simple, but taking action is not always easy. Eric, we’ll start winding down, but what’s one question I should be asking you that I haven’t?

Maybe people don’t know why I keep saying that financial freedom should be your number one goal. Some people are still asking me, “Why is that so important? I love my job.” You don’t have to quit your job. I’m not asking you to quit your job, but I want people to think about what if your job was not there. What if your job changed a certain way? We had something with the pandemic, for example. Even doctors who thought they were untouchable or dentists, all of a sudden, their practice was shut down for 3, 4 or 6 months, and they still had to pay the bills. They still had to pay the rent and all that stuff. You have to think about that.

Also, we all want to retire one time. We always want to spend more time with family and friends and travel, all that stuff. You want to start planning. Your health is also not going to be necessarily at the top of your game for the rest of your life. That’s why you have to start planning on that. You want to retire as early as you can. If you can retire anytime, you should want to retire now so that you’re healthier now as opposed to waiting for your health to deteriorate or some other issues that come up.

There’s a big difference between having to work and wanting to work.

I was doing a lot of independent consulting and when I became financially free, that completely changed my view and how I felt about going to work. I was like, “I’m coming here because I enjoy it. I enjoy working with these people. I enjoy working on these projects.” When these projects winded down, then I told my client, I said, “It seems like it’s a good time for me to move out or move away and do something else and dedicate myself to real estate investing.” The time happened to arrive at that point a few months later. I’m glad I was able to do that. I was able to focus on things that I wanted to do that I was passionate about.

That’s interesting because even like for myself, I’ve got some time freedom where people call me, reach out to me every week asking about deals and structuring deals. I’m passionate about creative deal structuring. I get to do these consulting projects because they’re fun. Sometimes I get a little piece of the deal. Sometimes I give people advice. It doesn’t matter. If I was stuck at a 9:00 to 5:00 or more likely, a 7:00 to 5:00 type of job, I wouldn’t have that. The time freedom is fantastic. Honestly, for you and I to be talking for 45 minutes in the middle of a day, many people can’t even fathom how they would get the time to do that.

I enjoy traveling, so I want to be able to travel and still check out how the work is doing. We have a big team now. We have close to 40 employees working on the FlipSystem side. We have a solid team, so it’s nice to be able to travel, do some things, and then stay on top of things with our leadership team and make sure that everything is going the way it’s supposed to.

How can people find you? I’m pretty sure you’ve got some social media out there.

The best is Eric Martel Official and you can find that on all the normal social media platforms. You can also search on YouTube as well. I have a channel there, Stop Trading Your Time For Money. That’s under the same thing, Eric Martel Official. That’s the best way to reach out to me. I also have a personal website called MartelEric.com, so you can check that out as well. Of course, FlipSystem.com.

Eric, we had fun when I was on your show and I knew this would be a great time, but I appreciate you taking the time and coming on and sharing some wisdom.

Thank you, Derek. It was a lot of fun.

We’re going to wrap this show up. As always, please follow us, like us, share us and spread the word. Let’s get the Generations of Wealth to be a household name and go out and live your vision, love your life. See you on the next one.

Important Links

• Reicot.com
• Gowvoyage.com
• TheGenerationsOfWealth.com/fbgroups
• TheGenerationsOfWealth.com/EricMartel
• TheGenerationsOfWealth.com/YTChannel
• TheGenerationsOfWealth.com/Instagram

About Eric Martel

I purchased my first apartment building at just 18 years of age while still at university. After graduation, in my position as an actuary, I was dismayed to see hundreds of company pension plans being rolled over into 401(k)s shifting the retirement risk to employees. This made me reconsider traditional beliefs about retirement saving. It also made me question my role as an actuary so I joined the lucrative technology industry.